Interview with Dr. Jonathan Schmalz, Greensboro Psychologist
Dr. Jonathan Schmalz is a male psychologist in Greensboro and has his own private practice. Dr. Schmalz specializes in working with neurodiverse clients using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.
This interview touches on his experience as a psychologist, how philosophy, religion, and values underpin his work with clients, and why maybe being happy isn’t the ultimate goal of therapy, or life.
- Travis
Interview with Male Psychologist Dr. Jonathan Schmalz
Dr. Schmalz on Leading a Meaningful Life
Travis Jeffords: The opening statement on your website, “let's help you lead a meaningful life even in the face of difficult circumstances and emotional pain” is really intriguing and very different from the opening statement that a lot of therapists lead with. Let's start there. I'd love to hear more about what it means to you to help people live ‘meaningful lives’. Most people show up at my door saying ‘I just want to be happy’, but you're making a very different statement right out of the gate, about a meaningful life.
Jonathan Schmalz: Yes. You are right, it does reflect something different about what my intention is in terms of what I offer folks. That is because my underlying approach, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), isn't about symptom reduction. It's not about getting rid of feeling bad and it's actually also not about being happy. It's about becoming more flexible: emotionally flexible with the way that we respond to our internal experiences, so that we can live a more meaningful life. The meaningful life idea is very existential in nature. Because there's no prescribed meaning of what a meaningful life is. That's often part of the therapy work, clarifying what that is. For some people that's more clear than for others. For some people, the things that are getting in the way of living that life are more clear than for others. We're hoping to let go of the struggle with trying to feel good first, and focus on living a meaningful life. Then pragmatically what often happens is that we do feel better, but sometimes we don't, because sometimes if the circumstances we’re in are just really hard, it doesn't change that.
Travis Jeffords: Let me see if I caught that. If I remember that last statement, ‘letting go of the desire to feel good first, and find meaning in your life in the moment’, which could and often does lead to feeling good but doesn't have to. Right?
Jonathan Schmalz: And not in the service of feeling good because if we're trying to feel good, then we're going to keep engaging in the same what we would call ‘experientially avoidant’ type behaviors, because we're trying to feel good rather than doing what feels meaningful and vital.
Dr. Schmalz on Philosophy, Religion and Therapy
Travis Jeffords: I'm curious about what has drawn you to this kind of therapy, which is very different from what a lot of therapists see their role as, correct?
Jonathan Schmalz: The backstory is that I was a little bit of a floater in undergrad and I went through lots of different majors. I was finally at some point really interested in and engaged in Taoism and Buddhism and existentialism, those were kind of the three big areas that had really, finally caught my attention and I was able to stay focused on and get into some depth with, and then I was getting to my fourth year of college and my parents were like, ‘what are you going do with that philosophy degree?’ I didn’t know. My intention at the time was I was going to get an MSW, so I thought about it. I thought, ‘I think some sort of therapy, being a therapist, would be a good fit for me.’ So initially I was thinking I would go to grad school for social work, but it was easier and quicker to add a psychology degree because it was in the same college. I got really lucky that I was in the Honors College at my university and Dr. Amy Murrell sent out an email saying she was looking for members for her research lab and I followed up on that. And I remember she and I had this sort of interview/conversation, this hour long conversation that turned into a conversation about Buddhism and Taoism and actually overlaps with Judaism as well as existentialism. And so I think I had this sort of philosophical background - the idea that suffering is a part of life and that we make meaning in a world that doesn't immediately offer us meaning. I think I had that background, which maps on really clearly with ACT and the philosophy of science that underlies that.
Travis Jeffords: I’m curious that you explicitly kind of didn't mention two of the world religions: Islam and Christianity, in saying that your therapy can map onto those well. I'd love to hear about your intentional or unintentional exclusion of those religions.
Jonathan Schmalz: Yes, so there's a step in there before the actual therapy. This is the background for my own kind of perspective philosophically. These are things that resonate in my viewpoint that lead into the therapy. And then as far as therapy is concerned, religion is a part of someone's life, as much a part of their values that we were talking about before the things that make life meaningful and vital. And so, bringing in, no matter what it is, be it a religion or a philosophy, how that meaningfully integrates into the rest of a client's life is important…as to what for them makes a meaningful and vital life, regardless of what faith or philosophy it might be.
Travis Jeffords: So am I hearing right that you can work within your client's value system?
Jonathan Schmalz: Yes. And there's a language thing here too. The idea of values in ACT does not map on directly to the way that within faith traditions, people often talk about values. Valuing is a verb in ACT. It's about these sorts of directions or domains of living that we find and make meaning in. It's not about specific things like, I don't know, like humility as a value that people might talk about. From an ACT perspective, humility would not be itself a value. But doing things with humility might inform how we know we are engaging in certain valued ends in our life. Meaning, for example, I really value parenting. It's a really important part of my life. And Humility is a really important way that I know I'm doing it well. The more humbly I approach the very, very challenging task that is parenting day in and day out…if I'm doing it with some humility, that's one aspect of how I can look at it and go, ‘okay, I'm doing this pretty well. I was able to humble myself enough to acknowledge to my five year old, Daddy made a mistake when I said X. I shouldn't have said it that way.’ That humility, again is and was the right word. It's just a how; it's kind of the adverb of doing something humbly allows me to track if I'm doing something the way that I want to and in accordance with my values
Dr. Schmalz on Working Within the Client’s Values
Travis Jeffords: This is so interesting, Jonathan. This is starting to get really nerdy, but I'm going to ask it: Internal Family Systems, my own counseling lens gives you preselected values. They call them the C words. Words like compassionate, connectedness, courage, calm, creativity, clarity, etc. Internal Family Systems says, these C words are the signs that you are what it calls, living in Self energy: acting and living well. And I think I've never thought of Internal Family Systems as imposing those values.
Jonathan Schmalz: I think if you do it flexibly, it's totally fine. But I think that if people get rigid about those things, as clients are learning something new, as we adopt any new behavior, we often adopt it somewhat rigidly. So I think it would just be a matter of having some form of a caveat and flexibility around it. Things like “calmly” and “compassionately,” for example: there are times in parenting that calmly and compassionately are not right. It's not the most effective and it's not how I know I'm being the kind of parent I need to be, because when my kid is running out into the middle of the street, I am not going to be calm in any shape or form. And the words that come out of my mouth may not be ostensibly compassionate. However, I would say that it's an act of compassion to keep my kid from getting run over. But it may look quite terse, and may look quite angry, or fearful, or any number of other things, but it is actually very consistent with being the kind of parent that I want to be. Now, I don't know enough about IFS to to say that it would suggest that you should be doing those things all the time, I just think of that as an example. Really more so in my kind of ACT lens of things about why we don't prescribe any of those types of adverbs because it's about what's effective. And that's another underlying philosophical component of ACT - things are really about doing what works and is effective, to achieve or move towards the ends that you've set out for yourself. So, being a certain type of parent is one of the things I'm really working towards, things that move me towards that, even if they, on the outside, don't always look that way.
Dr. Schmalz on ADHD
Travis Jeffords: I'm going shift because I could go down this route with you forever and would love to do that someday over a cup of coffee. Just to clarify, do you diagnose ADHD in adult clients? I couldn't quite tell from your website.
Jonathan Schmalz: I do not do assessment involving formal assessment measures, but I do utilize some self-report measures, and can do diagnostic interviews for ADHD. Especially with adults, a lot of what you're having to diagnose is their history. Part of a diagnosis is being able to really identify that history of the executive dysfunction because it's a neurological issue that should have been there since childhood. So in that regard, if we can make that diagnosis through those things, yes. And sometimes I will certainly make a referral to a neuropsychologist or other folks who do that formal testing when appropriate.
Travis Jeffords: Let's talk about how it can be helpful or even revelatory for an adult to come to the conclusion that they have ADHD. Maybe I just baited you on that. But, to make a more neutral statement, tell me about your experience of adults coming to the realization that they have ADHD, and what that is like for them.
Jonathan Schmalz: I think that, generally speaking, the big shift is having a better way of understanding the story of oneself. That one is lazy or incapable, and that I don't have the willpower to live my life well is often the core story about oneself that a previously undiagnosed adult with ADHD has developed. An ADHD diagnosis can offer a new perspective for understanding and shifting that sense of oneself. Both with an ADHD-informed therapeutic approach, but also medication much of the time. Medication is really the first line of treatment for ADHD. And I'm very direct with clients about that. If you have ADHD, and we see ways in which it has impacted your life, I'm going to encourage you to see a physician and discuss stimulant or non-stimulant medications because by the very nature of ADHD, it's affecting the way that we are able to engage with everything in our lives. People often think of it specifically in terms of ‘can I concentrate or focus on a work task?’. When we're kids, it's a school task. But, it's actually also, ‘can I attend to and manage the things that I'm thinking and feeling? Can I hold them in a way where they stay somewhat linear?’ With treatment, we can move towards, ‘I can get to the end of a concern, I can get to the end of a series of thoughts and go okay, great: there's my solution. Let me set that concern or worry down.’ A lot of times, there's this sort of ADHD ruminative cycle that people can get into. And so, ADHD-informed therapy is in part about bringing awareness to that and sometimes just having the awareness of the additional sort of input to recognize, ‘oh, maybe I'm just doing that loop thing’ can help. But also medication is very important to being able to make that shift.
Travis Jeffords: One of your specialties is ADHD clients, and another one is working with clients with autism and neurodiversity. What does it mean to you to offer a neurodiverse affirming approach?
Dr. Schmalz on His Work With Neurodiverse Clients
Jonathan Schmalz: ADHD and autism both represent aspects of the neuro-divergent spectrum. Also you know, sensory differences, sensory processing differences are a part of that as well. Having an affirming approach is to say ‘we're not going to look at these things as a bad thing’. I'm a strong believer that evolutionarily, if these things were so “problematic”, or objectively bad, then they would have gotten selected out in some way, right? I think it’s important to have a fundamental appreciation that there are so many really great things that come from neurodivergent perspectives. All kinds of things in our society would never have happened if we did not have people who, for example, can be incredibly focused on one small thing and find it fascinating enough that they can get all the way down into it to the depths of what humans can understand about something. That's one part of it.
But also, being able to think outside the box and take things that other people aren't seeing as a new avenue and going ‘hey, why don't we pull these things together and see what happens.’ There's just so many strengths to it. So I think having an affirming viewpoint that this is not something we need to get rid of. It's something we need to learn to work with. And because we do not live in a neurodiversity affirming society, many adults have never had the opportunity to learn how to develop those strengths. And in fact, many people are more aware of their struggles with difficulties in their relationships or difficulties with managing work tasks that can come from living in a world set up for neurotypicals, than they are with their strengths. Part of affirming therapy is clarifying the individual’s struggle. We can’t assume that an autistic person who struggles with relationships necessarily needs social skills. Depending on the person, their values, the things they want to achieve in their life, social skills may be useful. There's a process of discerning with each person what aspects of interpersonal difficulties matter to them. We can process the feelings around experiences of loneliness and rejection that you've had over the years, while also actually making space that it might be okay, if you actually did not want to have a whole bunch of different relationships. Some people who are neurodiverse do not want or need them. They want a handful of very close relationships or one or two close relationships, and that's really enough. I've definitely worked with neurodivergent clients in the past for whom that's a revelation: ‘you mean it can be okay for me to not feel like I have to be like, super socially successful?’ I'm like, ‘unless you really want it, it doesn't matter.’ But of course you've gotten that message, because people were trying to help you be more successful socially, going through school and things like that, well-meaning folks wanted to help you be successful in the ways they understand success. But it doesn't always have to be that way. I always come back to - fundamentally as an ACT therapist it comes back to - what do you care about? What do you want because there are some people who are neurodivergent, for whom social skills might be right because of their values and the things they want to achieve. And for many, it's more about being able to have some acceptance and say, ‘that's okay. I get to be who I am.’
Travis Jeffords: Not to play the ‘bad therapist game’ because we can all kind of get caught playing that game, but I know a phenomenal therapist who sometimes will call people's perceived deficits their superpowers. They’ll say, ‘that perceived deficit…maybe that's your superpower.’ I think that's a common line for therapists. And I think what I hear you saying is like, yes to that, and yes to the reality that it can be a superpower and it can be difficult and let's hold both of those at the same time. Right?
Jonathan Schmalz: Exactly.
Hi, I’m Travis.
As a counselor, I’ve met a number of amazing therapists in the area. You can find my interviews with other great male therapists in the Piedmont Triad below.
Travis Jeffords - LCMHCA | MDiv. | Male Counselor
In-person counselor: Greensboro & Winston-Salem
Virtual counselor: North Carolina
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Please note: The information provided in this blog is for general informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional counseling or therapy. The content presented here is based on my professional knowledge, personal experiences and research, but it should not be considered as a replacement for individualized mental health advice.
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