An Interview with Jake Ottman: Winston-Salem Male Counselor
Jake Ottman is a male counselor in Winston-Salem and works for Lewisville Family Counseling. Jake specializes in working with couples, as well as individuals with a variety of concerns.
This interview touches on his experience as a counselor, his work in the Peace Corps, his love for working with couples and men, and how his own understanding of mindfulness has shaped his work as a counselor
- Travis
Interview with Male Counselor Jake Ottman
Jake Ottman’s History with Counseling
Travis Jeffords: People are always interested in how counselors get into counseling. You shared a little bit about that with me the last time we were chatting, but I would love for you to share more...
Jake Ottman: So my first career was in human resources. There were some pieces of that job that I really enjoyed. Ironically, those are the pieces that I really enjoy about counseling as well, which is really getting to work with people on issues that are important to them, whether it's their job or their career, but also obviously within counseling, you expand those areas of interest out to include every area of life. I think that was a big part for me…to get away from the business components of the HR job, and focus more on the people components. It's a privilege to be able to sit with people and hear their stories and help them process difficult situations.
It's just an honor to be able to do that work and it's nice to be able to go home every night and feel energized and excited rather than depleted and burnout.
I will say that being in the Peace Corps was definitely a catalyst as well. It got me out of the box, doing something completely different from what I was used to doing, and challenged me on so many levels. After my HR job it was really what helped move me into something different. And I think that's a great analogy for people dealing with things like mood issues as well. It's like if you're stuck doing something you don't want to do or stuck feeling the kinds of feelings you don't want to feel, really pushing yourself to make a significant change, whether that's moving, or starting a relationship, or moving out of certain friendships, developing different hobbies or activities or interests…I think it’s really one of the best ways to improve one's life and move it in a really positive direction.
Jake Ottman on Trying Something Different
Travis Jeffords: I love that story. I love the simplicity of the ‘do something different’ technique, right? It's like, let's just try something different and see how that works. It's amazing how something so seemingly simple invites you to work through a lot of issues…because in order to do something different, we have to confront a lot of barriers that sometimes are holding us back.
Jake Ottman: Exactly. Do something different. It's definitely less sexy than like a cognitive behavioral approach where you're doing tons of insight oriented work, and I love all that stuff. I do all that, but sometimes the low hanging fruit is just a behavioral approach. Just putting yourself in uncomfortable situations or just new situations that don't even have to necessarily be uncomfortable. That can really force us to see different perspectives and feel different kinds of feelings, and oftentimes that's exactly what we need.
Jake Ottman on His Experience in the Peace Corps
Travis Jeffords: Speaking of new situations and uncomfortable situations, I'd love to hear more about how your experience in the Peace Corps informed your understanding of yourself as a counselor or the counseling experience. Anything you'd like to share about that?
Jake Ottman: There are so many different directions I could go with that. I will say one significant part of Peace Corps that I wasn't expecting was living as a minority in a different country. Being a white male comes with a lot of different privileges. That's undeniable. Living in Southeast Asia where my religion, my culture, my way of being, all the way down to my skin color just was not the norm. It was not the majority. That was really eye opening for me to have an experience where all of a sudden, the people around, the community around me, weren't tailored to me and my interests and my way of living.
It definitely was humbling, and it gave me a lot of gratitude for minority groups here in the US and the ways in which life is definitely not as comfortable and can be downright a lot more difficult for them here in the US than it is for someone like me.
Travis Jeffords: In my limited time in India, I had that same experience of being a minority in a different developing nation. But I was also aware at the same time that even though I'm a minority in that space, there's still a kind of privilege given to me as an American, a white male American, that that I don't think would happen if I was from a different country in the world visiting India.
Jake Ottman: You're right, that’s another layer to it as well, right. There's certainly some amount of attention that was more positive than I think other people would have received.
Jake Ottman on Couples Counseling
Travis Jeffords: Let's shift to your work as a couple’s therapist. That's how you and I originally met and I'd love to hear what drew you to that particular vein of counseling because honestly, it is something that a lot of counselors kind of keep at arm's length and are hesitant to do.
Jake Ottman: I had a hunch going into the field that this might be an area of interest, but I didn't really know why. And now that I've been doing it for a decent bit, I am starting to figure it out. I mean, it's so raw, it's so real. People really bring their authentic selves to the couple's work.
I don't know if some of that is because you have your intimate partner sitting right next to you who can kind of call your bluff at times and be a balance and check when you're communicating. Also, it's one of the most important if not the most important relationship in people's lives. People consider couples counseling sometimes as a last ditch effort to save the relationship. It's just a very vulnerable experience. And as a couple's counselor, being able to really show up and bring 110% of your focus and energy to that space to help couples get clarity and understanding about what's going on is, for me, so invigorating. It really is an honor to be able to be with people in that space and to be trusted to help people through some of the most vulnerable and delicate and confusing and painful and joyous parts of their life.
Travis Jeffords: As you shared that, I think the phrase ‘show up’ piqued my interest because it is a well-used counselor tropes, but I'd love to hear what that means for you. When you hear ‘show up’ in counseling, what does that mean to you?
Jake Ottman: One of the things I think as a counselor we really appreciate in clients is when they come to session with an openness and a willingness to change…a motivation to accomplish something. I experience that to some degree with all of my clients, but I find that especially the couples work, it's almost like it's another level at times, and the energy that they come with: the honesty, the authenticity is kind of palpable.
I respect that and I feel like it brings out the best in me as well. I try to meet that honesty and that intention with my own. Many couples don't have the skillset or tools to have constructive and authentic conversations and it is a radically different experience to be in a session with a counselor who's helping them have those conversations. This is one of the things I would love for people to know who are unsure about whether to consider couples counseling is - that kind of communication is immensely valuable. If you don't feel like you are able to access that space with your partner where you're really just showing up…beyond the anger, beyond the frustration and the defensive/critical dynamic that we often engage in…to get to what you are really feeling, and to also hold space for what your partner is feeling…that kind of conversation is one of the most beautiful experiences that a person can have: to see and be seen by another.
You don't need to wait until you are on the brink of divorce or you feel one last shred of hope for the potential salvation of your marriage. This can be a space much like mental health counseling where you're just open and curious and interested in potentially building something new in the relationship or tweaking something that's old.
It can be more of an exploratory space rather than kind of a life or death last minute effort to fix something.
I would love to see from a cultural standpoint the stigma around couples counseling start to disappear a little bit. I think we're still struggling with that when it comes to couples counseling in the field. It feels like with mental health counseling we've gotten past that…people come to counseling just to talk about the change of the weather, right? And we see the value in that and the value of having a non-judgmental, accepting professional who can guide you through small or large difficulties in your life. But when it comes to couples counseling it still feels like there's a bit of a mountain to climb for people before they consider it an option. I think it's changing slowly, but, I would love to see it start to open up more to couples who aren't necessarily on the brink.
Travis: I don't know if it's the Gottmans who came up with the statistic that people wait five years between the time they know they need counseling to when they actually get into couples counseling? Is that what you've heard?
Jake Ottman: Five to seven? Somewhere in there. All together too long. Yes.
Travis Jeffords: A phrase I picked up on you talked about ‘holding space’ for each other. For people who've never heard that phrase or aren't sure what that means…what does it mean to ‘hold space’ for your partner?
Jake Ottman: It could sound kind of jargony I guess. I think for people who are trying to improve communication in their relationship, it looks like improving the quality of listening in the conversation. The clarity of the intention, I think that’s what it is. What's the point of this conversation that we're having? Why am I bringing up this concern? Are we clear about what's happening and what our expectations are? What our boundaries are? What's healthy communication and what's not? Is criticism okay? Is contempt? Where do we draw the line around how we're going to agree to speak to each other and engage with each other?
So I think those two things certainly - what's the intention? What's the quality of the listening and the quality of the language that we're using with each other?
I think that's what I mean by holding space.
Jake Ottman on Mindfulness and Mental Health
Travis Jeffords: You have taken up such a variety of paths, which is really rich, and I find fascinating. We've touched on the Peace Corps part and HR part, but I want to jump to something I haven't heard you discuss - your history with mindfulness retreats and your own work in mindfulness and how that informs your practice…if it does.
Jake Ottman: Absolutely. It was really kind of the catalyst to transition to this field. Peace Corps laid a lot of the groundwork in terms of shaking things up and pushing me outside of my comfort zone, but it was really the mindfulness work that helped me make sense of my new reality and integrate a lot of my new learning in a way that got me into a much more aligned career path.
I would say it also worked wonders for my relationship.
Taking 10 days apart where we're just in complete silence with ourselves, practicing simple meditation exercises,eating really healthy and being in nature really helped us reset the boundaries in our relationship and gave us a clearer sense of where a lot of our suffering was actually coming from. One of the most difficult things about working with couples is we get so stuck in dynamics that are almost kind of automatic in nature after a while. When you feel this way, I feel this way. When I feel this way, you feel that way. We kind of lose some autonomy in that process, and we start to give our power away. I think the mindfulness retreats and daily practice helped us both reclaim our own personal experience where I'm taking responsibility for myself, and my own suffering. And you're taking responsibility for yourself. Then from that space, we can start to really empathize with each other much more effectively. It doesn't mean we don't care for each other. It just means that we're caring for each other from a place of being grounded in ourselves. And that was a game changer for us in our relationship.
Travis Jeffords: I think you're so right that without awareness, we just keep doing the same thing. The subject might change in our conversation with our partner, but we're just having the same damn conversation over and over and over again.
Jake Ottman: Yes.
Travis Jeffords: That first step of first being able to witness…to get enough space that we can witness what is happening inside us is so key.
Jake Ottman: Something that I talk about with my clients a lot, especially my couples, is the difference between content and process when it comes to things that we have conflict about.
There's a lot of times where the content does start to seem irrelevant or redundant. At that point I’m starting to wonder if the content of a particular argument is actually a distraction from the real problem and I’ll try to help couples take a 30,000 foot view of their problem and how they're going about doing it. In EFT work this is described as the couple’s “dance.”
It gives them just a little bit more awareness of the bigger picture of what's happening and helps them calm down and get a little bit more regulated too. So I like using that approach with clients.
Travis Jeffords: Sometimes the dishes aren't about the dishes…
Jake Ottman: Right. Sometimes couples do need a therapist's help to work through the dishes dilemma, but sometimes it’s more effective to explore how the positions each partner takes in the conversation about the dishes are actually playing out in every conversation. This is one of the areas where I find couples counseling to be very beneficial.
Jake Ottman On Working with Men
Travis Jeffords: I’d love to end by hearing a little bit about your passion for working with male clients, as a male counselor.
Jake Ottman: We both share a passion for helping men experience emotional connection. There's just so many misinformed tropes out there for men about what it is to be emotionally healthy and intelligent. And it's gotten such a bad rap, I like to deconstruct some of that with clients. Men oftentimes don't realize how strong, attractive, and how useful it can be to be able to identify what you're feeling and process it accordingly.
The perfect example is the guy who constantly gets belittled by his boss and feels disempowered in that relationship and copes by going home and displacing it onto his wife and kids because he doesn't have the self-awareness or the communication skills to explore what's happening at work with his wife in a way where he's not taking it out on her. He's not owning his primary emotions and instead is experiencing only anger. When he starts processing in a way that's not just venting, he can really open to exploration, and this isn't about being soft, necessarily. Sometimes it can feel soft. It's more about just having good information about what's going on because if you're human, stuff is going on internally, and your emotions are some of the best data you have for what is actually happening internally.
A lot of stuff is going on that doesn't fall into the anger and frustration buckets that most men live in. If we can't at least acknowledge and see that, then we're not working with the best information. And if we're not working with the best information, we're not making the best choices.
Hi, I’m Travis.
As a counselor, I’ve met a number of amazing therapists in the area. You can find my interviews with other great male therapists in the Piedmont Triad below.
Travis Jeffords - LCMHCA | MDiv. | Male Counselor
In-person counselor: Greensboro & Winston-Salem
Virtual counselor: North Carolina
Licensed Counselor
Please note: The information provided in this blog is for general informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional counseling or therapy. The content presented here is based on my professional knowledge, personal experiences and research, but it should not be considered as a replacement for individualized mental health advice.
Every individual is unique, and the content provided may not be applicable to everyone's specific circumstances. It is important to consult with a licensed mental health professional regarding your specific concerns and to receive personalized guidance tailored to your needs.